That's a very cool hack, but there are tons of things on a system that aren't the CPU that would benefit from some moving air. A fan somewhere in the system that just moves a bit of air would, I think, really contribute to the overall longevity.
This isn't a problem. The article says that this is only if you're looking to trade-off performance for less noise:
> In other words, we would only recommend upgrading to the NF-A12x25 G2 if you seek to lower noise levels as much as possible and if you are willing to sacrifice the maximum performance headroom in worst-case scenarios that the G1 HS-PWM fan provides.
> In addition to redesigning and testing the Noctua fan grill, we also evaluated various other scenarios. These included replacing the NF-A12x25 with its G2 variant and incorporating an additional 8cm fan for exhaust purposes.
I would really be interested in desktop if so many items weren't non-upgradable. It's bad enough the CPU and GPU, but understandable, cannot be upgraded, you're stuck with the selected memory at purchase too. Even the laptops have up-gradable memory and that's typically where you would see memory soldered to the board.
You can get DIMMs that do 8000 right now, and LPCAMM2 should become capable of even higher speeds even though it's "only" 7500 at the moment.
Framework says in their blog post that they talked to AMD about using LPCAMM2 and the engineers "finally concluded that it was in fact not possible without massively downclocking the memory". And okay, I believe them, but I'm pointing my blame a lot closer to the CPU than the memory modules.
> The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus.
Right, you'd put in two of them.
Half your data lines run to each module, and you can put them both tight against the socket, so no routing issues there.
If there's a control line that would need to be shared across both modules, and it can't be shared in a fast way, or there's some weird pin arrangement that causes problems... oh look I'm back to blaming the CPU.
Framework's whole reputation is based on upgradeable, modular design right? It's certainly surprising to me that their desktop seems to be the opposite of that.
It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts.
Really, it'd be surprising if they didn't go into that corner. Chinese makers have proliferated because there is a market for small devices that have external monitors, etc.
I think you're using your 2000's brain and not updating your firmware to the modern consumer appliance. We're watching computer tech growth decline sharply with fewer leaps and bounds.
So when I hear about this upgrade stuff, it's just sounds like 'get off my lawn' when it comes to this specific type of mini pc.
There is a part salvage factor to consider. If one can pull the drive, they can attempt to send it out for data recovery or wipe it for resale. If they can also pull the RAM, they can recover more costs.
With the all-flat layout of the Ryzen APU and soldered memory I always though the framework desktop MB would be ideal for a single waterblock covering the entire MB.
> It must be noted that customer safety and EMC requirements for the mini PC, a standalone electrical item, differ from those for hardware components (such as the PSU) designed to be inside a PC case. The safety standard suggests that ventilation openings on case side panels need to be less than 5mm in diameter.
...but it's a plastic panel? I don't understand how this helps with EMC.
Framework lets you buy bare mainboards, if you can't run those on your table without the radio police swatting your house then they wouldn't be allowed to sell them anyway.
It's more than just the Noctua fan. The fan grille is a contributing factor to noise [0]. The new design features in the article could reduce the noise of any 120mm fan.
Well the fan in the Framework desktop is some kind of purpose built high performance Noctua fan that is significantly louder than usual. So they are suggesting to use the new grill with the fan that comes with it so you don't encounter throttling.
Noctua makes 2000rpm and 3000rpm max variants of the NF-F12. Otherwise, through (over)engineered geometry and materials, their fans usually do push the most air volume and pressure at a given volume level, with a more pleasant sound profile. But you pay for it.
I think noctua fans are just better fans, noisewise.
They have better airflow design and sound dampening/isolating screw mounts.
I think the idea about reduced airflow might be backwards - most systems use PWM to spin the fans based on CPU or system temperature. This means the systems get the airflow they need.
Also, they make larger heatsinks + fans for certain systems that allow the same airflow using a larger, slower spinning fan. which means less sound.
that said, there are some noctua fans that can spin faster than others.
Noctua fans are quieter than most for a given airflow level.
They have a range of fan speeds going up to very high speeds.
Many people doing modifications will substitute a lower airflow fan for even more noise reduction, which might be why you’re thinking they flow less. That’s a function of fan choice, though.
Noctua fans perform very well on a noise-adjusted basis.
This guy has built a completely silent version: https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/monochrome-2-my-cu...
That's a very cool hack, but there are tons of things on a system that aren't the CPU that would benefit from some moving air. A fan somewhere in the system that just moves a bit of air would, I think, really contribute to the overall longevity.
Would be wicked if it was one of those passive cooling systems that create movement of air just via temperature differentials
That wouldn't necessarily be silent though.
[dead]
Is Framework planning to ship this at some point? It seems pretty bad to need to print your own grill when Noctua collaborated on the project.
This isn't a problem. The article says that this is only if you're looking to trade-off performance for less noise:
> In other words, we would only recommend upgrading to the NF-A12x25 G2 if you seek to lower noise levels as much as possible and if you are willing to sacrifice the maximum performance headroom in worst-case scenarios that the G1 HS-PWM fan provides.
That's for switching to the NF-A12x25 G2 fan (from the G1), which has a lower max RPM. The improved side panel appears to be a strict improvement.
It doesn't say that:
> In addition to redesigning and testing the Noctua fan grill, we also evaluated various other scenarios. These included replacing the NF-A12x25 with its G2 variant and incorporating an additional 8cm fan for exhaust purposes.
"The safety standard suggests that ventilation openings on case side panels need to be less than 5mm in diameter. "
Appears that it doesn't pass safety guidelines, so this is one way to get around that.
No, they changed the grille to adhere to the standard. Very clearly stated in the very next sentence.
I would really be interested in desktop if so many items weren't non-upgradable. It's bad enough the CPU and GPU, but understandable, cannot be upgraded, you're stuck with the selected memory at purchase too. Even the laptops have up-gradable memory and that's typically where you would see memory soldered to the board.
If they made the memory upgradable it would defeat the purpose of the machine, since memory modules can’t hit the same speed as soldered memory.
If you’re buying this you’re probably maxing out the memory to start with. 128GB is borderline barely adequate for local LLMs.
You can get DIMMs that do 8000 right now, and LPCAMM2 should become capable of even higher speeds even though it's "only" 7500 at the moment.
Framework says in their blog post that they talked to AMD about using LPCAMM2 and the engineers "finally concluded that it was in fact not possible without massively downclocking the memory". And okay, I believe them, but I'm pointing my blame a lot closer to the CPU than the memory modules.
The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus.
https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1iyfrjv/comment/...
> The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus.
Right, you'd put in two of them.
Half your data lines run to each module, and you can put them both tight against the socket, so no routing issues there.
If there's a control line that would need to be shared across both modules, and it can't be shared in a fast way, or there's some weird pin arrangement that causes problems... oh look I'm back to blaming the CPU.
If they made the computer unupgradable it would defeat the purpose of their company.
LPCAMM2 can, its a shame Framework couldn't make it happen.
I don't understand how many parts people really upgrade these days.
For one, the memory is soldered on because it's integral to the GPU the same way it's integral to the Apple's M3, and can be used the same up to 96gb.
At the form factor, what else are you expecting to upgrade over it's lifetime?
This statement makes it sound like there's a lot to upgrade when it's mostly just memory people seem confused about.
Framework's whole reputation is based on upgradeable, modular design right? It's certainly surprising to me that their desktop seems to be the opposite of that.
It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts.
Really, it'd be surprising if they didn't go into that corner. Chinese makers have proliferated because there is a market for small devices that have external monitors, etc.
I think you're using your 2000's brain and not updating your firmware to the modern consumer appliance. We're watching computer tech growth decline sharply with fewer leaps and bounds.
So when I hear about this upgrade stuff, it's just sounds like 'get off my lawn' when it comes to this specific type of mini pc.
There is a part salvage factor to consider. If one can pull the drive, they can attempt to send it out for data recovery or wipe it for resale. If they can also pull the RAM, they can recover more costs.
You lack the knowledge of the AI Max chip. You can’t have slots. It requires soldered memory because it’s unified.
It requires soldered memory because no one makes LPCAMM2 modules for LPDDR5x
https://www.cdw.com/product/lenovo-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-camm...
https://www.cdw.com/product/crucial-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-lpc...
They do.
"because it's unified" is definitely not the reason.
With the all-flat layout of the Ryzen APU and soldered memory I always though the framework desktop MB would be ideal for a single waterblock covering the entire MB.
> It must be noted that customer safety and EMC requirements for the mini PC, a standalone electrical item, differ from those for hardware components (such as the PSU) designed to be inside a PC case. The safety standard suggests that ventilation openings on case side panels need to be less than 5mm in diameter.
...but it's a plastic panel? I don't understand how this helps with EMC.
It's a safety standard, so the requirement is "toddlers can't get their fingers stuck in the fan".
There is no way the EMC situation is maintained with that modification.
Framework lets you buy bare mainboards, if you can't run those on your table without the radio police swatting your house then they wouldn't be allowed to sell them anyway.
So just use Noctua fans? That'd do it.
It's more than just the Noctua fan. The fan grille is a contributing factor to noise [0]. The new design features in the article could reduce the noise of any 120mm fan.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32923226
Well the fan in the Framework desktop is some kind of purpose built high performance Noctua fan that is significantly louder than usual. So they are suggesting to use the new grill with the fan that comes with it so you don't encounter throttling.
Its been a while since I looked into "just use Noctua" for $another_use_case, but ...
Isn't the problem with Noctua (and similar "silent" fans) that they don't offer the same airflow throughput as their noise making bretheren ?
So sometimes its not as easy as "just use Noctua" ?
Noctua makes 2000rpm and 3000rpm max variants of the NF-F12. Otherwise, through (over)engineered geometry and materials, their fans usually do push the most air volume and pressure at a given volume level, with a more pleasant sound profile. But you pay for it.
Worth noting that you are also paying for the service.
I have RMA'd many fans through them and the experience is quick and painless every time.
I think noctua fans are just better fans, noisewise.
They have better airflow design and sound dampening/isolating screw mounts.
I think the idea about reduced airflow might be backwards - most systems use PWM to spin the fans based on CPU or system temperature. This means the systems get the airflow they need.
Also, they make larger heatsinks + fans for certain systems that allow the same airflow using a larger, slower spinning fan. which means less sound.
that said, there are some noctua fans that can spin faster than others.
Their big fans do push enough air, the small ones are questionable
If you're looking for 40mm or 80mm you're better off with sunon maglev or similar
Noctua fans are quieter than most for a given airflow level.
They have a range of fan speeds going up to very high speeds.
Many people doing modifications will substitute a lower airflow fan for even more noise reduction, which might be why you’re thinking they flow less. That’s a function of fan choice, though.
Noctua fans perform very well on a noise-adjusted basis.
For some applications such as cooling of an extruder for a 3D printer Noctua fans indeed don't offer sufficient airflow.
But I don't think that's an issue for computer cooling unless you're talking about extreme circumstances.